SPEAKER_01 0:18

Coming up on this episode of Media Rebel Unplugged.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

I got on the apps and I was like, oh, this is what they're talking about. So bad. So after yes, do you recommend people that you're working with? I do. I think, you know, we make a list of what we're looking for, a job, or when we're looking for a house or a car. Why would we go into the most important relationship without being super intentional about what are we looking for?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Tell me what it was like for you when you you were going through this part of your marriage and it starts to unravel and you start to show up every day as a professor.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

I had to keep my professional life together so that I could support myself and my boys. I think I recognized how difficult it was afterwards.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Welcome back to Media Rebel Unplugged. I'm Janice. Today we're talking about what no one prepares leaders for. How to keep showing up at work when your personal life is quietly unraveling. Joining me today is Dr. Meredith Thompson, professor of management at Utah State University and founder of Partner Lab. Welcome to the show, Meredith.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Thank you so much, Janice. I'm super excited to be here and talk about this topic that touches all of us.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

I'm so excited to have you here. Before we jump in, I'd like to hear a little more about your story and what led you into what you're doing now with Partner Lab.

SPEAKER_00 1:49

My story is about 20 years in the making at this point. So I got married actually in college, not even straight out of college, in college, and um stayed in that marriage at least 10 to 12 years too long. And even though I'm a researcher, I do work-life research. And I really, frankly, I'm not sure if I wasn't aware of what the relationship science said about relationships, or I kind of instinctively knew, but just kind of avoided looking at it because I didn't want it to tell me what I think my body body already knew was, which was that was not a safe relationship. And so it took me many years to finally get the clarity to go, okay, I've been staying for my children because um I was raised in a high demand religion, and that's what you're supposed to do if you want to be a good mom. And I really wanted to be a good mom. And it was actually my children realizing the impact the relationship was having on them. Like I had a moment in what I now call my my former stupidly big house, standing in the kitchen and just having had an interaction with my then spouse. And I thought, oh my gosh, my boys are learning that it's either okay to treat their partner this way or it's okay for their partner to treat them this way. And that was really like the tipping point that kind of led me down that path. And then a few years after I divorced, I was in the car and I was listening to a podcast, and frankly, I cannot tell you which one it was. But I just had this moment of like, you know, I have I have access to the research and can interpret it because I call it pointy-headed academic research. It's not written for the masses, it's written for other pointy-headed academics. And so just realizing that I could take what I have access to because I can get behind the paywalls because I'm a professor, I have the knowledge to read it and go, okay, here's what that means in like real people language. And that's how I started Partner Lab was just recognizing that I could take my background from being a techie years ago at Deloitte, being able to read academic research and translate it, and then taking lived experience and understanding like what do people need to get clarity in their relationships? Because I wished I'd had it 10 or 12 years before, because you know, those are years you can't get back. And the older we get, the I think the more impactful those years are. And so that's kind of how I came to to start developing Partner Lab.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

Wow, that's quite a journey. And you made up so many great points within what you just said. And I think it's uh it's something that I even saw recently in a new study that had come out about how more divorces are being decided upon based on the environment that the children are being raised in and how healthy it is for them. Whereas, like you said, we would stay in marriages because that's what we were taught to do. You know, your religious background can really play a huge impact in that. My first divorce, I went through something very similar. It was, I don't I don't want to get divorced. My parents are still married to this day, but looking at they didn't have a toxic marriage, and the one that I was in was really unhealthy. I was married to an alcoholic who became a drug addict, and I didn't want to raise my children in that environment, but it wasn't an easy decision, you know, by any means. And on the tail end of that, not only are we making those decisions because you know, we have our children impacted, but now it's okay, well, can I make a living on my own? Now I'm gonna have a single and now how am I going to balance being a single parent and showing up every day as a leader while now I've through this really hard thing.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I will say I I was fortunate and it was kind of by design in my first marriage. I was the primary breadwinner. And I I was that because after my parents divorced, my mom really struggled to make ends meet. When I was a senior in high school, our house was in foreclosure because she couldn't make the mortgage payments. And I just went, she leaned on me a lot as a confidant early on. And by the time I hit college, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm never gonna put myself in a situation where I can't stand on my own two feet. And even, but even with that, you know, I I had the ability, the finances to leave, and it was still really hard to make that decision. I know for a long time I didn't make it because I didn't want to do to my boys kind of the way my parents had navigated their divorce. And took me a while to realize I could do it differently. Truth be told, I didn't do it as well as I had hoped. And other things I would do differently, but hopefully I did it a bit better than my parents did. They tried their best, but you know, it was the 80s. We didn't understand a lot of that stuff back then. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Wow, and just like you're saying, you know, you did your best, and that's all we can ever do. I think there are times that we can put our parents on um a pedestal of sorts, of how, you know, that we forget they're human. And just as you are, you know, and when your children get older and struggle, they're gonna look back and just be thankful that you got it got them out of that situation and for yourself too, to show that you have self-respect um and to give that clarity that you need. And then to take that that painful experience and repurpose it the way that you have, and to put it in a layman's terms for everybody else is, I mean, not everybody can do that. That makes you quite special.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Well, I I appreciate that. And I just I feel like it's important. It's giving what my lived experience means. And so that you know that's a huge part of it. It's like I don't want all that suffering and what I learned and how much I've grown and changed my life to be just for me. Yeah. The thought of getting to s to spread the information and and um outcomes far and wide just delights me to no end.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

That's wonderful. Tell me what it was like for you when you you were going through this part of your marriage and it starts to unravel and you still have to show up every day as a professor. You know, what was that like going through that experience?

SPEAKER_00 7:56

I don't think I realized what it was like when I was going through it because I knew in part I had to keep my professional life together so that I could support myself and my boys. I think I recognized how difficult it was afterward because like there were a few days after my spouse at the time moved out of the house and I was sitting at a at a red light in my car, and I realized I could breathe like fully. And I hadn't done that in years and years and years, because the just the pressure, the weight of the relationship, and everything was off. So, yes, figuring out like looking back, I can see how stressful it was. I think also for me, it was work was a welcome distraction. Like when I was going through the thick of the divorce process with a colleague, I wrote the most um high prestige journal article that I've written in my career with a colleague. But it was like a place to kind of pour that um that energy and just to give my my brain a break from what was going on. So I've got one foot in front of the other. My ex-spouse and I still work in the same department at the university. And so that's you know, all of that kind of continues on. I I saw work as a a way to give my brain a break from everything else that was going on.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

That's a very good point because work can become a distraction for you. And a lot of women do that. We just dive in and do everything fully, you know, fully focused on this thing over here. This project makes me feel so much better because then I'm not sitting here and and focusing on on the pain of what's going through. They believe that we need to sit sometimes with that pain and the discomfort to truly come through it and heal through that.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

I agree. Yes, and the in the months leading up to me finally making that decision, there's a canyon near where we lived that is very windy. It goes up mountains, it is stunningly beautiful. And I a number of times would get in my car and roll the windows down and drive up that canyon with music blaring and just think and decompress.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Yeah, music can be very healing. Taking a drive, just getting out, you know, fresh air, just kind of seeing like all the other pieces of life, I feel like can be just a therapeutic experience.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

I think too, for a lot of people, being outside or in nature helps because it helps you your brain kind of remember that the world is just unbelievably expansive. There are many opportunities out there, and that I think it gave me hope. Life was gonna get better, and I would have lots more opportunities um to drive that road up on myself whenever I wanted, you know, after the divorce, and you kind of you get I got my freedom back. I feel like that's what divorce was. I got my peace and freedom back.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

It sounds like you never had it. I mean, to get married in college, you never really had that. If you're helping your mother, and then you go to college, you get like that little taste, probably just a short time of freedom, and then all of a sudden you're in the relationship that probably seems really good, and we can go into relationships not realizing how we're looking for comfort and support, and and it's really not that.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Yeah, no. That's the other thing I I did not realize when I was in it because you know, these unhealthy relationships tend to be a slippery slope. Like if they treat us badly on a first date, we're like hard pass.

SPEAKER_01 11:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

That's something I didn't realize until I was out of it. And that actually became my mantra to myself, and sometimes still is like when I'm going through a rough time, you know, with business or with something else. It's like I would tell myself, peace and freedom, peace and freedom. That's what I was working towards. Yeah. And um, yeah, when I it took me several years. My first Foss and I we dated in high school. So we were high school sweethearts. And I didn't realize until several years out that, you know, I do what now we know is quite common is we gravitate towards the familiar or to certainty. And in many ways, the first time I married my mother, trying to like heal dysfunctional dynamics, trauma, whatever you want to call it. So um, so 43 years old, I really took the opportunity, had the opportunity to figure out who I was and what I wanted. And um that stupidly big house that I lived in when I got divorced, I don't I don't value that anymore. Like the peace and freedom is so much more important, travel is so much more important. Yeah, so it's really getting divorced, at least for me, helped clarify what my values were and what was really important and what was just for show.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Yeah, it's not always the monetary gain and and the things around you. Like you said, you can't put a price on freedom and your state of mind is just there's absolutely no amount of money to put on that. But also you don't really see when you're in situations. I myself have had toxic relationships. I actually I just wrote a book about my experience that I had gone through as a survivor of domestic violence. And a lot of people will say, but didn't he show signs? And it's funny how often I get asked that question. It's like, sure, he did show signs, but we didn't see them. If it's the first date, of course, there's if there's a red flag, we're out. But that's not usually how toxic relationships begin. They start off with the you look wonderful and perfect and everything is great and they have the right responses. And then there's those little yellow flags that have people call that that get put in. But normally it's once you're really tied and stuck in. So for me, it was once I moved into his house, everything was flipped upside down. But everybody's experience is different.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Absolutely, absolutely. And I do think for a lot of people it is it is that slippery slope or slowly boiling a frog. When I got out of, I didn't recognize I was in a relationship with super unhealthy dynamics until I was out of it and then looked back, and there was like so many things that happened. Like I made made most of the money, but I did not control it. And so it wasn't until after I got divorced that I like got to figure out my own budget and I frankly did not have a lot of self-trust at that point in that. It was something I really had to grow.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

So when you were finally free, what did it take for you to be brave enough to get into the dating goal again? And I love how I saw, I think you basically said you made your partner in a lab, essentially. Tell me about it.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

I did. Frankly, it didn't take me very long. I I cried for let for I think pretty much every day for a year before I finally called my first marriage quits. And so I grieved a lot and I'd been in therapy a lot and um worked on a lot of things that would make me better prepared to choose a new partner. And I then dated since high school. I was excited to kind of do it and see what it was like. And then I got on apps and I was like, oh, this is what they're talking about. So after a yes, after a few first dates or like, no, I recognized, I was like, okay, Meredith, what are you looking for? Like at first I think I was just looking, it it was interesting, it was novel, it was exciting because it was new and different. And then I I started a list on my phone that still lives there to this day of I think like 19 or 20 things I was looking for. And it was things like can take responsibility or be accountable for his part in a conflict, knows who he is and holds on to that sense of self. So it wasn't a while back, there was the the commentary about you know, women wanted a guy six five, blue eyes, finance bro, whatever. You know, there wasn't anything on there that was, I guess, tangible. It was much more about who he was. And after after a date, I'd go back to my list and go, okay, what do I think? And I really do think I made this partner in a lab. Actually, after we started dating, I had I added at least one or two more items to that list in case I needed that list again. So we we each we learned later that we each treated dating like a research project. And so I think that really helped us. It sounds nerdy, it sounds unromantic, but dang it. It's just like I actually ended up paying alimony in my divorce because I made more and it was easier, probably cheaper to pay alimony than go to court and fight it. Um, and after I started dating and met my now partner, I was like, my gosh, I would have spent 10 grand a month to get out of that relationship so that I could be in this one. And so yeah, it's just it's it's invaluable and it just takes some courage, you know, to and to get to know someone again after you've been in a really unhealthy relationship that my partner makes it easy.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

I don't think there's anything wrong with creating a list of the partner that you want. In fact, I think that helps us hold ourselves accountable and not accepting things that and you know, we as women are so guilty of this. The but they might become this that's like the worst thing that we can tell ourselves. Do you recognize people that you're working with?

SPEAKER_00 17:08

I do. I think you know, we make a list of what we're looking for, a job or when we're looking for a house or a car, we have our list of like what we're looking for. Why in the world would we go into the most important relationship on our lives, the thing in our lives that has the biggest ripple effect, whether it's positive or negative, without thinking very critically and being super intentional about what are we looking for? Because I think a lot of people, and I think on the front end, I probably was, I knew I didn't want X, Y, or Z. I didn't want somebody who raised their voice with me or undermined or, you know, all these things. But then, like what what we focus on is tends to be what we gravitate towards too. And I will say there's one person I dated for a very short period of time that was again me um kind of navigating towards the familiar. And that was one of the points at which I was like, okay, I have to figure out what I do want, not just avoiding what I don't want. So I absolutely do. And and I'd say make that puppy as specific as you can, make it long, add things to it, take some things off, whatever it is, because most of my work as a researcher is about how our work and our family lives affect one another. And it's massive. And you can see it in my life. My career has like taken off since my divorce. I did a TEDx talk, I started a coaching business, and now I started a partner lab. And so we're not just making a decision about once certain area of our life. It has a ripple effect, and if it affected even on our physical health, we're in a bad relationship. It literally takes time off our lives.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Yes, yeah. And in my situation, it nearly almost took my life. So definitely selecting your partner is one of the most important things that you will ever do.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

Absolutely. Yes. So yes, I'm a huge fan of making a list.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Love that. For sure. I was on your website for a little bit, and I would love for you to tell other people about what is available in there because I feel like you have some really amazing assessments that they can start with in workbooks. So when somebody is going and you can tell me the site in a minute, because I know it's some I don't want to mess this up.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Sure. But no worries.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

But when they go onto the site, you know, what should be the first thing that they they start with?

SPEAKER_00 19:24

I would start with what we call the Clarity 360. And so it is a deep dive into 24 relationship factors that are super um indicative or predictive of relationship health and happiness. I will say I am so stoked because later this week we will launch what we're calling our stay-go assessment. So half of our users reach out and they're like, what I really want to know is should I stay in this relationship or should I end it? So we've been furiously working to take relationship science and build a tool that gives them a very clear recommendation about whether they stay in the relationship, whether it's time to end the relationship, or whether there's some things that maybe could be worked on in the relationship to make it better. And there's a third option of stay with conditions, but getting very specific about what are those conditions. And there should be a time frame on them. Like I think so many people, and maybe especially women, stay in relationships. You know, maybe they're not dating the potential, but now they're married to the potential. And it's like, well, if I do this, he'll do that. I was very much in that pattern. And so putting a time frame on it. Like if things don't get better by X, you know, within 90 days, then I need to take some steps because staying in that, we know that staying in indecision about our relationship costs us emotionally, physically, but also financially. And so those are two of the tools that I'm really excited about. We have a deeper one for people who are like maybe have decided they want to end it. But, you know, like me or maybe like you, they had kids and they're like, oh, you know, you just you don't want that regret. So I think of it as regret insurance, and that's the clarity circle. And it's a seven workshop deep dive to help them figure out what's going well in the relationship, what's not, where they have influence. Again, I think a lot of women think they can shape the relationship, but we can't control our partner's behavior. And so it helps them get super clear about where they can influence things and where they don't have influence. So letting that go. So yes, we are um super excited to offer the Stago assessment that'll be out shortly.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

That's awesome. I know several people off the top of my head right now who could benefit from taking that assessment, as I'm sure many others listening do. So where can they go to find that?

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Our site is mypartnerlab.co and the website narrative section specifically for the stago to help them understand what it is, what they'll get out of it, and hopefully the clarity that will come with that. That that's our big thing is focusing on getting clarity. Because until we can't until we have clarity, we can't really make a decision about much of anything, but especially in our relationships.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yeah, that's the absolute worst place to be is when you're stuck in that limbo and it's always in the back of your mind, uh you're waiting for that shoe to Drop feeling, you know, I I had a conversation with a friend the other day. She was like, Oh, he's finally listening. He's finally acting like he wants us, he's finally seeing. And I'm like, I don't know if these are good statements.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Yes, yes. And well, and sometimes it'll change for a little bit, you know, and but that we're looking for the lasting change. And that's one of the things we emphasize in the in the stay with conditions and the resources that we provide with it is you're looking for change, but you're looking for lasting change, not not change that just lasts a couple of weeks or something.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Yeah, because as you said, there's no freedom in that. You just you can't relax, your shoulders aren't dropping. You're carrying on that weight with you.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

I think what you're doing is amazing, and and I hope that somebody listening today finds value in it and will share it with a friend or family member.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

We build tools that we wish we had had.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

That's awesome. Aside from your site, where else can people learn information with you if they want to connect with you directly?

SPEAKER_00 23:19

LinkedIn. I've also got a professional website that's more focused on um my work as a negotiation professor, and that's at MeredithThomson.com.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Awesome. We're gonna include that information in our notes for our listeners that are tuning in today. And I just want to thank you so much for being on here.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Thank you. Right back out to you, Janice. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Thank you so much. Thank you to everybody that is listening today. If you found value in what you just heard, please share it with a friend and don't forget to subscribe. And we'll see you next time.